Saturday, September 13, 2008

Sept 13: Northwest Passage Open

Wow, the ice coverage must be really low. I would like to blame climate change, but the timing seems wrong.

Welcome to Time Magazine, Sept 13, 1937.

Note that one of the vessels involved is called the Nascopie. Nauscopy is a mysterious 18th century technique that involves seeing over the horizon to discern the future arrival of ships. Seems a bit ironic that we have forgotten how to look BACK over the horizon to see ships that arrived 71 years ago.

13 comments:

PKD said...

The Nascopie was fitted with an ice breaker bow and her plates were of five-eights inch steel.

Wow. Another ice-breaker. I am soooo impressed!

As I've pointed out to you numnerous occiasions the difference bettwen nnow and the 30's is you can sail through even even *seeing* any ice, mush less having to be in an ice-breaker to hack through or to have the path cleared ahead of you.

Your tunnel vision on this is as long as the straws you are clutching at are long!!!

PKD said...

ahem - Fixed typos...

The Nascopie was fitted with an ice breaker bow and her plates were of five-eights inch steel.

Wow. Another ice-breaker. I am soooo impressed!

As I've pointed out to you numerous occaisions the difference between now and the 30's is you can now sail through without even *seeing* any ice, much less having to be in an ice-breaker to hack through or to have the path cleared ahead of you.

Your tunnel vision on this is as long as the straws you are clutching at are long!!!

Halfwise said...

"And was the North-West passage likewise clearing for shipping traffic in the 1930's? Doubt it some how."

Some guy posting under your name wrote the words quoted above a couple of weeks ago. One of you is making the other one look bad. Why don't you sort your facts out with him and come back when you have your stories straight?

PKD said...

My story is perfectly straight - its your reading comprehension that sucks! ;)

I'll try and help you out - I suggest you put your glasses on this time!

My point a few weeks ago was that shipping traffic, that is shipping traffic in the everyday commercially-viable-merchant-traffic sense was not possible even back in the 30's. Unlike today where plans are being formed and fought between nations over who gets to control this new lucrative *merchant shipping* route.

The point above is basically saying the same thing. Different words, same meaning...

...of course if you know of any time back then in the 30's when ships regularly plied their capitalist trade through the NW passage, instead of a minute handful of dangerous scientific expeditions carried out by ice-breakers, then I'm ALL ears!!! :)

Shawn Whelan said...

The Southern route of the NW Passage was travelled every year by the HBC(Hudson Bay Company) in the 30's. The Aklavik was by no means an icebreaker. A 30HP icebreaker? That is idiotic.

Gjoa Haven(1930) and Cambridge Bay(1929) pictures showing low ice level. A lot more info in that link.

http://www.kitikmeotheritage.ca/Angulalk/hudsons/hudsons.htm

This little boat the Aklavik also made it through the NW Passage in 1937.

http://iain-cameron.blogspot.com/2007/07/test.html

Nascopie and Aklavik meet from East and West in 1937
The Nascopie commonly travelled through the passage in the 30's.
http://iain-cameron.blogspot.com/2007/07/aberdonians-arctic-feat.html

In 1944 Larsen took the St. Roch from Halifax to Vancouver in 86 days through the Parry Channel route.
http://www.ucalgary.ca/arcticexpedition/larsenexpeditions

The Arctic travelled the Parry Channel route twice and could have travelled right out of the ice free McClure strait. This from 1908 to 1911.
http://www.ucalgary.ca/arcticexpedition/icebreakers/cgs-arctic

W.E. Parry travelled the length of the Parry Channel route and back in the early 1800's and McClure sailed right into the McClure strait from the East around 1850.

Then there is Amundsen and a lot more evidence.

This evidence is ignored by science, and it shows the conditions in the Arctic in the thirties were similar to today. And then in the late 40's the Arctic froze up and the HBC shut some of their posts due to the increased ice.

What is called science has become an embarassment.

PKD said...

Reading comprehension not your strong point either hey Shawn? Ah well...

The following points are still valid

As I've pointed out to you numerous occaisions the difference between now and the 30's is you can now sail through without even *seeing* any ice, much less having to be in an ice-breaker to hack through or to have the path cleared ahead of you.

...and...

...of course if you know of any time back then in the 30's when ships regularly plied their capitalist trade through the NW passage, instead of a minute handful of dangerous scientific expeditions carried out by ice-breakers, then I'm ALL ears!!! :)

...which you blissfully ignored when posting your collated list of a minute handful of, umm, ice breakers and scientific expeditions!!!

Feel free to help Half out and answer it yourself of course, except we all know that in the 30's it only was a few handfuls of brave souls hacking through ice heavy waters who actually managed it. And that's not true of the NW passage conditions today.

Rgrds,
PKD
.

Halfwise said...

Shawn - Welcome to my little blog and thank you for your comments and links. PKD, a belated welcome, and thank you, too.

PKD, I seem to have lost the point of your comments over the past few weeks on this posting and on the NSIDC posting of a couple of months ago. The only consistent theme I can discern is your claim that there is no ice in the NW Passage today but there was plenty of ice in the 1930s. Thus today people can just sail right through, whereas 70 years ago people had to bash their way through ice. I think you then connect the ice-free conditions to AGW, but I would not like to put words into your mouth.

Could you provide a reference or two for each of these claims, the 2008 one and the 1930s one?

The ships that got through this summer and who posted their logs online generally reported quite a lot of ice. Tyhina (http://www.tyhina.com/log.html) comes to mind, as does Berrimilla (http://awberrimilla.blogspot.com/2008/08/7340-7626-reflections.html).

PKD said...

The 2008 references I'll post you some links or snippets in a day or 2 Half - I've had a hard slog at work today so I'm going to crash.

For the 30's I seem to recall when reading in the various articles of 30's expeditions that get put up common repeathing points about needing an ice-breaker to make it though, having to make several attempts, and even getting stuck in ice for a year before getting through.

I guess I can really go an paste links for it...but are you really suggesting 30's expeditions didn't see any ice and had it all plain sailing?

PKD said...

Hmmmm typos - my bad! Like I said I'm tired! :)

I hope you get the gist though..

Halfwise said...

Plain sailing? Heck no. My point all along is that what we are seeing in the Arctic today is nothing new. Alarmists tend to point to events that are unprecedented in their personal recollection and declare that a disaster is upon us. There is plenty of evidence that the Arctic was as warm in the 1930s. I have provided links and examples on this blog.

Anonymous said...

"My point a few weeks ago was that shipping traffic, that is shipping traffic in the everyday commercially-viable-merchant-traffic sense was not possible even back in the 30's. Unlike today where plans are being formed and fought between nations over who gets to control this new lucrative *merchant shipping* route."

Your point is pointless. There is talk and plans and negotiations regarding future use of the NW Passage but it is not currently able to be used commercially. You are trying to compare future Arctic conditions that might occur with past conditions.

And reports show that "the deeper Parry's Channel of the Northwest Passage did not quite open this year". Even the NE Passage is said to be "navigable, but still treacherous, with shifting floes of thick, multi-year ice, that could coalesce rapidly."

So don't jump to the conclusion that these passages are currently ready for shipping traffic. They aren't, not even for the few days when Arctic sea ice extent reaches minimum.

Anonymous said...

I also ran across an article that said:

"As of the first week of September 2008, Arctic sea ice extent had not fallen below the record low observed in 2007, but the season set a new kind of record. For the first time in probably half a century -- and definitely since satellite observations began about three decades ago -- sea ice retreated enough to create open (not ice-free) waters all the way around the northern ice pack. Open water is defined by the World Meteorological Organization for the purposes of navigation as areas where the ice covers less than one-tenth of the surface."

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=29204

Much better than the alarmist reports such as "possibly the first time in 125,000 years".

Halfwise said...

Hello Mr or Ms Anonymous, and welcome. I appreciate your contributions, and especially your reminder to distinguish between facts and predictions.

Niels Bohr's famous quote "It is difficult to make predictions, especially about the future" comes to mind.

I have quoted him before on this blog:
The opposite of a great idea